Transformation in Trials
A podcast about the transformations in clinical trial. As life science companies are pressured to deliver novel drugs faster, data, processes, applications, roles and change itself is changing. We speak to people in the industry that experience these transformations up close and make sense of how the pressure can become a catalyst for transformation.
Transformation in Trials
Exploring Patient-Centric Innovations in Digestive and Women's Health with Ariadna Maso
Navigating the tumultuous sea of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is no small feat, and Ariadna Maso of Sanno Health is our compass on this voyage. As the mastermind behind a company that's reshaping how we understand and manage gut health, Ari shares her intimate understanding of the patient's struggle, from the stinging uncertainty of diagnosis to the often overlooked psychological toll. Our conversation goes beyond the standard medication narrative and into the realm of holistic care, where anti-inflammatory diets and mental health support take center stage. Ari's insights into ongoing research illuminate a path for integrating these lifestyle modifications into patient care, offering a beacon of hope for those navigating these often-rough waters.
When it comes to personalizing patient care, digital biomarkers are the wayfinders charting a course through the previously uncharted territories of healthcare. But the journey is fraught with challenges: data diversity, operational hurdles, and the sheer volume of information from tools like wearables. In this episode, Ariadna navigates us through these operational storms, detailing how Sanno Health evolved from an app into a comprehensive platform that's not only tracking patient health but is actively engaging them in their treatment. We also probe into the stark disparities between industry perceptions of patient-centric care and the realities patients face, unveiling the transformative potential of incorporating patient feedback directly into clinical trial designs. Join us as we explore the diverse therapeutic landscapes that stand to benefit, including digestive health and the burgeoning realm of women's health, and the far-reaching implications of data-driven medical advancements.
Guest
Ariadna Masó
________
Reach out to Sam Parnell and Ivanna Rosendal
Join the conversation on our LinkedIn page
Welcome to Transformation in Trials. This is a podcast exploring all things transformational in clinical trials. Nothing is off limits on the show and we will have guests from the whole spectrum of the clinical trials community. And we're your hosts, ivana and Sam.
Sam:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Transformation in Trials podcast, and today we're delighted to be joined by Ariadna Masso, who's the founder and CEO of a really exciting tech company called Sano Health. Hi, ari, thanks for joining us on the show.
Ariadna :Hi, hi, sam, hi, ivana, I'm delighted to be on the show. Thanks so much for having me.
Sam:Perfect. Well, we're going to jump into lots of different topics today, ari, just based on your background experience, and get to learn some of the cool things that you're doing at Sano Health. However, with all of our episodes of the Transformation in Trials podcast, we like to structure things around this specific theme and, just based on your experience and what you're working on, we thought today's theme could be gut health gone digital, if that's OK with you.
Ariadna :Yeah, I mean it sounds great and obviously gut health is something very close to my heart, so very excited and happy to talk about it.
Sam:Sounds good. Well, let's get into this and, I think, setting the stage. Then can you tell us a bit more about the patient experience of having IBD or ulcerative colitis or other gastroenterous diseases?
Ariadna :Yeah, absolutely, I mean, for those listening, ibd stands for inflammatory bowel disease. For inflammatory bowel disease it's a chronic inflammation of the gut and it's different for Crohn's or colitis, meaning that one impacts the colon especially and the other one the rest of the digestive tract essentially. But the patient experience really and again this is very close to my heart, as the colitis sapphora varies over time and for me diagnosis can be quite long unless there is a trigger point where basically you go to emergency and they do a colonoscopy and they found essentially the organic symptoms that confirm that that is IBD. But essentially, I would say a key characteristic of IBD conditions are the flare-ups. So we know as flare-ups where symptoms are in a very active point and common symptoms, flare-ups with experience, as patients are from, let's say, severe bloating.
Ariadna :This might be a bit unpleasant, but let's say, um, urgent visits to the bathroom with a diarrhea, um, and it might be even, yeah, a lot of fatigue. We sometimes even can experience changes in weight actually, and I would also like to flag that it can be for some very heavy on mental health, like, say, anxiety and stress around it. And the second point is the stage of remission. This means where there's not an active flare, so we live with it and it's all fine and it's just a chronic condition that can have ups and downs, but there's no acute flare happening. So I hope that gives a good overview as to how it is essentially to have IBD as a patient.
Sam:Yeah, it really does. It sounds like a really nasty condition actually and something that's probably quite debilitating on a patient or anybody's quality of life. Should they have this disease, what are the usual treatment options or what's the standard of care currently to treat some of these conditions?
Ariadna :Yeah, definitely. I mean the gold standard definitely can be some drugs, autoimmune suppressors, there are even some biologics as well involved in in the care pathway typically. I would like to mention that gold standard, or the care pathway, if we talk about that, is quite reactive. So typically we act in terms of GP or emergency when there's an acute flare and I think where we are going generally, as you know, in the healthcare system, is actually to change that and make it more preventative, because we know that it's a chronic condition and it's going to come back. But it's more about identifying when and basically then we can defer these prescriptions, we can save costs and we can experience as well the life of this patient.
Ariadna :So definitely that is one way. Obviously there can be some biomarkers involved, so testing, annual tech, curves, colonoscopy. But yeah, coming back to your point, it's very reactive, mainly based on drugs. Yeah, coming back to your point, it's very reactive, mainly based on drugs. And, if you ask me, actually I think that we are really missing a holistic approach when actually managing and taking care of IBD patients. I mean happy to elaborate more on that.
Ariadna :Yeah, I think you raise some really interesting points there, and what's preventing us from exploring these holistic approaches, do you think in your view, Well, I mean, when we zoom in and take a look into the care pathways and not even IVD, pretty much we see this in all the verticals and health areas and pathologies. But essentially we are not ready, the healthcare system is not ready, to assess patients on a 360 basis as to their lifestyle, their dietary interventions. For example, it's very rare to find a dietician actually involved. I mean there are some community dieticians, for example in the UK in the NHS context. In other countries it's very different. They are not involved or they are not part of an insurer, for example, and a healthcare plan etc. But we're really not capturing that. What dietary interventions and changes we can do, and also these um psychological support as well, that more and more we see that, as we said before, right, especially with chronic conditions, they pay a toll.
Ivanna:So, um, they are not really included in in the care pathway at all understood are there any dietary preventions that you can put in place when it comes to IBD?
Ariadna :I love the question and actually there are, as we speak, several studies looking into dietary interventions. I mean one, for example, that I have seen actually traces back to anti-inflammatory, basically, diet. We're trying to understand the role of gut irritants and that could be from lactose, that could be from refined sugars, that could be with gluten, on how the impact is patient and the flares. That's very interesting. I mean we are also seeing more and more studies linking to the methodogenium diets and how that impacts. But but definitely we need more research, we need more attention to it and it's happening, but it's happening more maybe in private care and the new emerging disruptors and especially tech-enabled companies that are offering this 360 approach and management.
Sam:Ari, I think we talked before in the prep call to this episode, but I know people who have ulcerative colitis, for example, and you can't obviously predict when a flare-up is going to happen, but there might be a lot of signals leading up to a flare-up is going to happen. But there might be a lot of signals leading up to a flare-up. That might be an indicator to a flare-up potentially about to happen. But my personal view is, in the real world people aren't necessarily gathering and harnessing and collating the data related to that in a coherent way and maybe, yeah, just anecdotally there there are some opportunities there to make better use of data or even collect that data in the first place. What's your perspective on that?
Ariadna :well, I actually love that you raised this point and, if I may, I would love to share because this is fresh news. It came out in the press weekly on friday, so a few days ago. But basically we, we, as soon as we got selected by eit health with initiative with takeda pharma company, um and ku louvain in belgium, to exactly do what you just mentioned, sam, which is how we can leverage on digital biomarkers and also fecal and blood-based biomarkers to understand, to prevent these flares to happen and see patterns right. And I have to say we are having this conversation in the most exciting times of it all because now we have, with llm, large language models driven by machine learning, ai models. We can really do that. We can untap so many opportunities and patterns.
Ariadna :And coming back to your question, it's about understanding, for example, um, dietary patterns. So, for example, um, something we're working on is last time when you reported a flare, you ate, for example, a very gluten-heavy diet or ultra processed foods, or you basically didn't have much hydration actually, so it developed a flare. Watch out, maybe you should do something different. Or last time when you reported a very cute flare, we saw that building up with stress. So, through, for example, wearable data. We analyzed that you barely slept good nights for two weeks in a row, um your stress level, your heart rate variability, was actually very volatile. So indicators like that are basically very powerful when, on top of the block-based, the fecal-based, the symptom-based, the red-black assessments, that we can actually run and do so. I'm personally very, very excited and we are seeing this more and more in the clinical trial space with the use of digital biomarkers on top of the, the primary and the other ones yeah, I love that.
Sam:I love. I'll tell you what I really like is the digital biomarker that has the least impact on the actual patient's um routine, if you like, because I think that's where you're going to garner, hopefully, the most accurate data, because you're not expecting anybody to do anything. So you talked about wearables, for example. To me, wearables have a really great promise, if you like, because if you wear aware of all, you can just you're generating data 24 7 and it might be difficult for a company to garner that data, but for the individual themselves, there's no effort there. Um, can you talk a bit about some of the operational challenges around digital biomarkers and what they represent for a company like yours, I guess?
Ariadna :Yeah, spot on, because actually, I mean you're totally right. These are passive digital biomarkers that give a lot of information also in the clinical setting, so they can help clinicians to make better assessments with a 360 approach and, as we said earlier, this is really lacking in existing care pathways. So having this comprehensive data really helps and we have evidence of that and metrics. But, to your point, it comes with challenges. I mean, one of the challenges we see most is data harmonization. So before putting this into a prediction model, we need to make sure that we have harmonized data.
Ariadna :And it's very complex because every single wearable out there, they have a complete different way to operate and the amount of data collected, for example, just with an Oura Ring, is incredible. We could spend just hours downloading that on a daily basis and we could just spend days and days and weeks and weeks just analyzing that. So I you know we need to be very pragmatic and really understand what is the problem, what is the question, what is exactly what sort of data or sample of this data set, of this huge data set, we are going to look into to then make these patterns and these analyses and these predictions? So definitely, I think, as industry and this kind of general. We are learning how to apply this and obviously then bring this to regulators, bring this to pharma, bringing this to the ecosystem to make sure it's also validated. I mean, we could talk so long about data biases, data diversity, data representation, which is definitely another big challenge that we're very actively focused on.
Sam:I think it's a fascinating space to be in. What about clinical trials in this context? No-transcript.
Ariadna :Definitely, when we look into the pipeline with the clinical trials, especially focused on IBD, we see exciting research coming out on biologics, new therapies. Also a very exciting one is the fecal microbiome and fecal transplant. Definitely that is very, very nascent mean. In some geographies like australia this is already being further approved and it seems like it's progressing better further down the line in the care pathway. But we have still a long way to go and it's actually very delicate in terms of data and there's of like transplanting people from a healthy person to someone else with IBD. But definitely I'm excited to see how it develops.
Ariadna :And connecting with what we mentioned earlier about dietary interventions.
Ariadna :So I said earlier, we are still missing so much as to what personalized recipes or what personalized can be macro, micro nutrients can work for each of us and it's very complex because here we don't only go down to IVD level, but also I mean, for example, fiber. If I eat too much fiber it can actually backfire. But if we follow the guidelines, the gold standard is that all of us we should eat 30 grams of fiber a day and only 10% of the population is actually doing it in the Western world. But just to give an example as to how complex it is, because the personalization is definitely a key angle and we are seeing that more and more also in some of the clinical trials and pipeline, obviously with digital therapeutics also worth mentioning the cognitive, behavioral side of things, where psychological interventions can also help these patients. So, yeah, we're also seeing that and I believe it's very, very exciting to see also this type of clinical trials going on and can some of those therapies be administered via digital means also?
Ariadna :good question. I mean, some of the studies are actually to validate that there is a digital delivery, let's's say, of the treatment. So that falls under the digital therapeutic scheme and obviously that has to be regulated. It can be FDA, it can be MDR in Europe, but I would say yes, that is one part of the equation and we are seeing more and more so far actually putting attention to those. And obviously biologic pipeline is still there and is growing. But it's very interesting to actually see the trend to more and more digital interventions as well.
Sam:Are you seeing some of the endpoints in clinical trials starting to evolve a little bit? Just thinking back to some trials that I was involved in a few years back, the kind of gold standard was like Mayo scoring, I believe, where it was a mixture of some diary data and maybe some other data as well, combined to create a score. Is that still the gold standard, or do we see a lot more than that nowadays?
Ariadna :Well, that's definitely a good standard, but we are seeing also an expansion towards other endpoints and primary endpoints, and actually I guess it's still a challenge though, because when we have so much information with digital datasets, how we are going to pick one? Information with digital data sets? Which how we are going to pick one? So how we are seeing this applied is we're still relying on the gold standard, but maybe there's a secondary endpoint which is basically boosted or enhanced by digital biomarker.
Sam:At least, this is how how we are seeing it at the moment that's probably a good segue into talking to us a little bit about Sano Health. Tell us a bit about the company, the problem that you guys are trying to solve, how the company was formed and your journey along the way, if you don't mind, Ari.
Ariadna :Absolutely. I'm always excited to talk about Sano. Yes, and basically, sano came out actually as a result of my own journey as a patient dealing with colitis and I realized that, from a patient perspective, the fragmentation, this lack of holistic data as to how can I track, how can I understand and how can I control and manage my condition wasn't there really. And how can I control and manage my condition Wasn't there really. So, basically, the first version of Sano was literally a patient-facing app helping monitor on a 360 from drugs, but also like okay, what am I eating, what's my stress level like? And basically following protocols via digital platform.
Ariadna :Right now, sano is more than that. So basically, we are a patient engagement and data platform and we collect basically data, analyze it, but coming from a B2B angle. So basically, our clients are clinics from the treatment side and also biotech and pharma on the clinical side, where they need better understanding of reported outcomes from patients with harmonized data that can be actionable, comprehensive data sets. But something we're really obsessed about is this patient experience, which converts into retention. I mean, as you probably know, drop-off rates. I mean, as you probably know, drop-off rates. I mean we see some protocols only a third of the people participating I avoid to say patients a lot actually, but basically a third finish it and that's a big problem and that's because they don't see, maybe, any reward.
Ariadna :They are dealing with a very tough condition. I mean, obviously, ibd is a core part of what we do, but we also work a lot with diabetes, obesity. Women's health is booming at the moment and comorbidities, analyzing it and really seeing patterns for, for example, early detection of endometriosis coming from pelvic pain and gastro symptoms, which is super, super exciting, given there's not much little or there's not much research out there. So this is, in a nutshell, what we do, when and how SANA got started.
Sam:How do you practically go about keeping the patients engaged and in the clinical trial setting? Is that via some of your technology or you've got other things that you work on? I'm curious on that point because that's a big problem, right From experience. People have to complete these diaries daily. Sometimes. They're pretty laborious at times and there's not necessarily any feedback mechanism and the technology sometimes antiquated too. So, yeah, curious to hear how you're seeing that problem and maybe some of the solutions that you might have developed to address that.
Ariadna :Yeah, 100%. So we are tackling this problem really from a personalization angle. So we have built a technology and it's driven by ontology, ai that essentially based on where you are in the protocol, what you track, you can still receive a reward, you can still receive an evidence-based content that can help you understand a little bit better where you are in the trial right. So it's not really about just patients consenting and giving information without nothing in return, but we are kind of holding their hand like a digital nurse in a way where they can feel also heard and basically we integrate with. We can also do with electronic health records, but with clinics and sites.
Ariadna :So another key component is this integration where they can request a call and just be more proactive, right coming back to what we said earlier, that the system essentially is just reactive, we see that playing also a key role and I would say the third angle. So we have the personalization integration, but it's also this empowerment, so really they can assess their progress, see where they are, and that really keeps them more engaged right In the study, which you know, some of the studies can be very long, even years, so at least they can learn about their health and they. They feel that they are getting something valuable out of it sounds really cool to me.
Sam:And have you managed to work out how a seamless way to be able to um, I don't know reconfigure your technology for want of a better term if you have something like a protocol amendment, so that so the protocol amendment happens and that changes the course of the study? Obviously the original configuration for what your app is designed around the first protocol and often the challenge is the protocol changes. What happens to everything else downstream? Did you crack the code on that one yet?
Ariadna :well, this is obviously not very you know, not a very desirable outcome. That happens just because, also from a data perspective, now, with the data had on the data we compiled before that protocol change. That cannot be comparable. So that could be obviously a waste of time and money, also from the sponsor perspective, and the patient can also feel like, hey, what's going on? You're wasting my time, what's going on? But we have seen this a few times. And I mean from a platform perspective. We designed it in a way that it can be adapted and it can be scalable from the backend perspective. So the sponsors, the study coordinators, they can adapt basically the questionnaires, the timeline. But obviously we don't wish that to happen that often because of all the implications in the outcomes for all the stakeholders.
Ivanna:I want to circle back to something you said about trying not to call participants or users of your apps patients. Can you tell me more what your thinking behind that is?
Ariadna :Yeah, I appreciate actually that you picked on that one Because basically we are obsessed with, you know, the experience, and I mean we developed this company of patients with clinicians and researchers right, it's a co-development and a partnership. But when we speak with patients and we do that every often we um typically well, we conduct monthly sessions with them and they they don't like to be actually seen as patient, they see it as debilitating. Many times they even call subjects and actually that that is like the feedback we get is that that is not human, um, and why we shouldn't be part of something actually that doesn't really treat us. And when we think again, right, we're in their shoes, they're dealing with the condition and it's very hard, tough, emotional, so we should be more human and you know, I would like to to finish this answer with um staggering statistic. So, basically, we ask patients.
Ariadna :You know there's a lot of talk right now in the industry about patient centric approach, right and sorry, but I have to say there's so much bullshit out there about this because in real life I mean, when we asked pharma managers, BD, you know, investigators, et cetera, etc. They believe this and this is actually data schools I can share with you after the podcast. But they believe. On average, 70 percent believes that they put the patient in the center and when we ask this question to the, the patient only six percent feel that they are actually put in the center and listened and heard. So there's a massive mismatch there in terms of patient centricity and patients feeling heard.
Ivanna:That makes sense and I think the feedback loop that you mentioned earlier that patients actually get to see some of the data or benefits instantly from some of the data that they're collecting for a clinical trial. I think that sounds like a promising avenue for how patients or how people participating in trials can get more benefit right away 100%. Well, how about you, Ariana? How did you fall into this space to begin with?
Ariadna :Yeah, so perhaps it's not really the most common pathway or trajectory.
Ariadna :As I said earlier, we started very, very focused and obsessed with the patient experience right, because it was something very close to our experience ourselves and the problems we were experiencing.
Ariadna :And then we built the integration with the clinicians, the clinics, different electronic health records, and we realized that a lot of clinicians, that they were actually participating in research and they were involved in some studies in terms of sight, they were involved in some studies in terms of sight and they were asking us hey, do you also have a way for us to streamline this data collection and to engage, because they're wasting so much time as well just trying to follow up, calling the patients, and that kind of gave us the insight as to, hey, we actually expand, enhance our tech infrastructure to also cover research. But obviously that's a completely different product because obviously it's more regulated. It has to be all intractable and anonymized data, which has different implications as well on how we treat the data and implications as well on how we treat the data. And we had to enhance and we continuously invest in data protocols, cybersecurity, I mean that is really really a next step in the product.
Sam:So this is essentially how we got into it and I would say maybe the outliers in the industry, because we started very, very focused on patient insights instead of coming from the other side just pushing products that come maybe more from the sponsor mentality, if that makes sense to me and I think in the last 12 months I've seen a big shift back towards the sites, actually in the site perspective, on the types of technology that they want to use their place in the whole clinical trial process, because I think that with the whole patient centricity viewpoint for want of a better term some of the importance of what the site's perspective was got removed and it's all intrinsically linked as we know, um, but as a result of that, uh, some of the perspective from sites started to get missed.
Sam:So I think it's pretty cool that your kind of company seems like it came from. You did a great job of building some technology that was useful in the treatment setting and then, if I heard you correctly, those same stakeholders who were involved in clinical trials said hey, hold on a sec, why wouldn't we just use this in clinical trials too?
Ariadna :yes, spot on, sam, and and I think your point is very valid and interesting, because we can talk about clinician adoption and site adoption and we have seen that. We have seen actually great and large companies capturing reported outcomes and integrating, but the site essentially they maybe don't feel those systems are intuitive or they don't really feel how to work with them. So, um, it's, it's very, very important to have that you know sign off and clinicians on board for adoption and success in in the clinical trial.
Sam:essentially, got it and from the clinical trial standpoint, ari, who's your ideal customer profile in terms of pharma, biotech or don't have to name names, but sort of size of company operating in specific sort of therapeutic areas I would imagine. Yeah, maybe you could share a little bit about that yeah, absolutely so.
Ariadna :Typically there are two kind of profiles and personas. One is definitely the principal investigator and someone who actually is in clinical, comes from basically the clinical background, understands the problem and also is about what data we need to collect, which integrations we can use through the platform. But obviously bd gets into place just because you know sign-offs etc. And procurement and that is definitely another another area, right talking with it and procurement, to make sure, okay, we are fully onboardeded and we have the green light to go. Essentially, coming back to your question about which therapeutic area, we are working a lot with digestive health and not only IBD. We also do a lot, for example, with celiac, which is also autoimmune condition, ibs, irritable bowel syndrome, which is more functional, and now, for example, we are involved in in several studies about gut brain connection, um adhd. So it's fascinating as well to understand all that connection.
Ariadna :The second pillar is diabetes, so we see also a lot going on and now we are seeing an apathy. We have one, uh. The third one is obesity and in there we see protocols where only a third of our patients finish um the study. So we we play a major role as well in keeping them and retaining them. And the fourth one and I'm very excited about this one is women's health, so female specific conditions that have been overlooked or not really researched. Endometriosis is one of them where we well, we believe with our data sets we can really help capture so much data and help contribute essentially to science and new protocols coming up for that.
Ivanna:Absolutely, and I think that there is a general shift towards women's health that is also way more data-driven and collecting data from the everyday lives of women. So I think it's an interesting overlap between the competencies that you have built in your company and this specific area 100% and also when we step back right.
Ariadna :I mean, women were excluded from clinical trials, for you know, it's been only 30 years ago when women could actually participate in clinical trials, and that's given multiple reasons, and one of them was obviously to protect them and hormonal changes, data biases, et cetera. But definitely now is the time. I think we live in a period. This is the moment, where we really need to make sure that women are part of the equation and are not assumed to be smaller versions of men, also in how drug side effects and therapy responses.
Ivanna:That's another fascinating area the proportion of women participating in clinical trials and what this means for what we know about how drugs work in women also. That's perhaps a topic for another day, but also very interesting.
Ariadna :Yeah, absolutely, we should do a part two, also very interesting. Yeah, absolutely, we should do a part two at some point. Yes, absolutely, we can share also more about our focus in this space. But it's fascinating and there's so much to talk about.
Ivanna:Well, as we start rounding off, we always ask our guests the same question in the end, and that is if we gave you the transformation trials magic wand, that could change one thing in the life sciences industry. What would you wish for?
Ariadna :well, well, I really like this question and I'm gonna say speed, if I could pick a word and something to to. I mean, when we think about it. It's taking us so long to release new therapies out to the market seven to 10 years at least, right. And basically, you know, I understand that we have a lot of regulation. We need to protect the safety is so important, but at the same time, we need to be open-minded. It's so important, but at the same time we need to be open-minded because now we have great tools with technology.
Ariadna :I'm personally very excited with LLM models, what we can achieve, the amount of data that we can analyze in such a short period of time, and basically that can shorten the the life cycle and definitely we can release therapies faster for better outcomes, for more efficient uh trials. So it's a win-win really right when we can also save the time, the money from the sponsor side and also we can um help people as soon as possible dealing with um their conditions. So for me it's speed, and I really wish everyone listening here today can think okay, what can I do? How can I at least see there, right, how technology could help us speed things up in a safe manner?
Ivanna:I think that's a great response and that would benefit all different areas if we could increase the speed. If our listeners have follow-up questions to you or want to learn more about SanoHealth, where can they find you?
Ariadna :Oh yes, absolutely. So they can find me on LinkedIn, so I'm usually very responsive. I mean, obviously our website is always open, so I'm usually very responsive. Ariadna Maso, there, I mean, obviously our website is always open. We have a forum. We receive a lot of messages every week. We can actually, as a team and myself, also spend time responding, so it's wwwsannohelp, so that's the best way. Yeah, definitely reach out to me, and very, very happy to follow up on any questions awesome.
Ivanna:Well, thank you so much, ari, for coming to the show with us. This was such a pleasure well.
Ariadna :Thank you so much to you both. Really, I really appreciate the invite and such a pleasure.
Ivanna:Thank you thank you you're listening to transformation in trials. If you have a suggestion for a guest for our show, reach out to sam parnell or Ivana Rosendahl on LinkedIn. You can find more episodes on Apple Podcasts, spotify, google Podcasts or in any other player. Remember to subscribe and get the episodes hot off the editor.
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